There is a boy, the same age as my grandson William. In fact that is how I first heard of the kid. He was in William's class. They were friends, but it soon became evident that William was a bit too easily manipulated into doing the wrong thing by this kid, and we really had to bring the hammer down on him. William was probably second or third grade. He and his mother were living with us at the time.
There were long drawn out conversations on right and wrong and the fact that William surely knew the difference between right and wrong. He soon realized that if he behaved badly, he would be the one getting punished. It didn't matter if someone else had told him to do it. He was the one who made the decision to do it, and his decision was going to land him in hot water every. single. time.
William started minding his p's and q's, and a natural consequence of this behavior was that he and his friend (let's call him Fred) began to not be such good friends.
Ironically, at the same time, I met 'Fred's' stepfather and he was a good, good person. Young, but hard working, extremely religious, and determined to set this boy on a good path. We ate lunch together and he discussed things with me. It was hard because both his wife and her ex-husband (Fred's father) had been serious drug users. In fact, the father OD'ed and died. The mother straightened her act up, and had quit the drugs. A couple years later, she met my friend and eventually they married.
But this boy. Fred was getting into so much trouble. He was in trouble at school constantly, and some of it was for pretty bad stuff. They couldn't find a baby sitter for him because he was just a really mean and disrespectful kid.
I talked to Tim, who was laid off at the time and working on a house (naturally). He was also taking care of William. He's a good man, and a patient one too. Perhaps, we thought, Fred could come and spend the day with William. Under Tim's patient and steady hand, maybe... So Tim offered to let Fred come and spend the day with them.
Except from day one, Fred didn't listen. He did what he wanted. He was rude to Tim. He was mean to William. The third day in, Tim overheard Fred telling William to call Tim a 'fucker'. Tim was amused to hear William say, in a shocked voice, "I can't do that! I'd be grounded for my whole life." Therre were whispered, "Do it! Do it! DO IT!" and William said, "I don't want to be mean to my grandpa."
That very evening, Tim talked to the parents and said he wasn't willing to watch him anymore. He explained why. His stepfather was discouraged. He was trying so hard to make a difference. He was proud of his wife, but he felt like part of the problem was maybe his wife felt guilt about the fact that she'd been a very poor mother for the first years of her son's life. Fred was 9, maybe, at the time.
Things got so bad at school that they moved Fred to a different school, thinking a fresh start might help. My niece works at that school and the problems there began almost immediately. Elementary school ended, and then there was middle school and from time to time, we heard things that indicated that things had not changed.
I saw the stepfather in a store a couple years ago. They were having a birthday party for him. I can't remember the reason, but it conflicted with something else going on in William's life and he would not be able to attend. The stepfather said awkwardly that they had invited a number of kids but they were not sure anyone was coming.
I kind of lost track of them, but Tim saw the wife today. He stopped and talked. Fred, now 13 is on probation. She did not say why. Things got so bad at school he was at that they have enrolled him in another school.
I've been thinking about this all night. The same age as our William and on probation.
And I guess that's why it is on my mind tonight. Is it ever too late to save a kid?
I think of his mother who has turned her life around. I think of his stepfather, working hard to provide for his family, trying so hard to make a difference in this kid's life.
And I am haunted by the idea that a 13 year old boy might be unsaveable.
Oh gosh... This is absolutely heartbreaking. I'm reading the book, Maybe You Should Talk to Someone. And I'm really thinking Fred needs to see a psychotherapist. Badly.
ReplyDeleteI read that book and it affected me so much that I later bought the workbook that goes with it; I saw little hints of myself in some of those people. I stop picking it up and writing in it for a while because I don't like some of the things I'm learning about myself.
DeleteThat's interesting, Donna. Years ago, I was reading Sylvia Plath. I'd read a biography or something, and that led me to reading her poems and novels. I had to stop reading it, because I recognized myself and it frightened me.
DeleteOh gee... You guys have got me worried. Although, yes. I did see myself at one point and it took me aback.
DeleteHe has been for at least 6 years.
ReplyDeleteSuch a sad life for that boy. Do you think his brain functions may pissibly have been affected by his mother's drug taking whilst still in the womb?
ReplyDeleteI'm kind of embarrassed that this think did not occur to me.
DeleteThat was the first thing I thought of.
DeleteIt does make you wonder if some people are inherently 'bad' and cannot or will not be saved from going in the wrong direction. I'd like to think Fred will eventually turn his life and attitudes around but I don't know. Two teenagers here have been given life sentences for murdering a fellow teenager - what made them go wrong? They were 15 at the time.
ReplyDeleteI watched a show about a prison in Louisiana. They talked about the prisoners who had murdered as teenagers, and had spent their entire lives in prisons. They discussed immature, impulsive brains and sentencing a kid to life in prison without the possibility of parole. It was thought provoking. At the same time, I thought of this boy and what the future held for him. It all just seems inevitable. I hate to think that's true, but it seems that way.
DeleteI did have one student named Sheldon in 1st grade who had been held back and placed in my room. The custodian who I was friends with told me at one point that Sheldon would be a toe tag some day. I didn't quite understand what he meant at first. But I looked up Sheldon's name a year ago online and doggone it! He had been arrested by the FBI for drug smuggling. Sigh... And he even got his sister involved who had also been my student. She was such a sweet kid. It's all so sad.
DeleteThe two teenagers were given heavy sentences and named in court for a brutal killing, the girl seemed pretty deranged. I notice on the news in America that parents are in court for manslaughter I think, after their son killed two class mates.
ReplyDeletePerhaps you can't change the 'bad apple' in the basket but only try.
That is a case we've been following closely. What kind of parent listens to reports that their child hears voices and wants to kill his classmates and believes the kid is merely joking? The mother said, "We joke like that..." (WTH???) They were called into the school and shown his notebook which contained graphic drawings and said something to the effect of 'the voices won't stop' and leaves that meeting texting the child "I'm not mad, but you need to figure out how not to get caught."
DeleteAnd then they bought him a gun.
They certainly, certainly should be punished.
The Crumbly family is a sad family! They are all going to prison!
DeleteMarcia in Colorado
Looks like my comment has been eaten by aliens!
ReplyDeleteI had originally commented that perhaps it was a possibility that, if his mother was taking drugs during pregnancy could that have affected his brain development in the womb leading to his behavioural issues?
DeleteI am not sure why this did not occur to me. You are probably right.
DeleteThis is so sad. I am almost certain that counseling for this boy has been tried or suggested. He obviously has endured trauma, and acting out is how a child tries to deal with their pain, they have no other skills. No child is ever inherently "bad" on their own, they become that way. If left untreated, he will devolve further into a life of crime or drugs or both. He can be helped, and it would take a miracle. Read anything written by Dr. Gabor Mate.
ReplyDeleteHe's been in counselling the entire time that I have known of the family.
DeleteI normally have a view and an opinion on everything, but this one leaves me flummoxed. The lad had a rough start to life but now has love and care. Maybe those first years had such a profound impact on him, building the boy before he became a man. Not my job to sort out and I am pleased it isn't'. I hope he is receiving good professional care.
ReplyDeleteI guess that it bothers me such a great deal because almost everyone who loves a kid sees that kid veer off into directions that scare the mess out of us. And then we reel them back in, set them straight, and start all over again. The idea of a kid that can't be set straight is chilling.
DeleteThere's no telling how much very early trauma the boy endured. It could have had a terrible impact on his developing brain and personality. What a shame.
ReplyDeleteIt is a very sad situation. I know that you see things like that too. There are a lot of lost kids.
DeleteThat boy needs extensive and intensive counselling, but he won't get it. And someday, he will own guns.
ReplyDeleteThe 'counselling' here seems more angled towards medicating, not effecting a change. This bothers me a great deal as well.
DeleteA big wow, my first thought. How awful. Second, I see the horrible consequences of his life play out, and am terribly sad. Chemicals/medications maybe, but there is likely going to be addiction as well as he tries to cope with a life that seems doomed. We all see that. And yet efforts of the best of us/you all, have failed. Maybe one of those intensive outdoor challenge therapeutic courses would help. It's all I can think of that hasn't been tried yet.
ReplyDeleteI've been pondering this all day. We live in an area that doesn't offer any great intensive programs for troubled teens. I feel sad for him, but also for his family.
DeleteI read a Robert B. Parker “Spencer” novel some years ago that echoed both my dad’s parenting and your thinking. This teen really dislikes himself because he couldn’t solve his parents’ problems. My dad’s answer to most teen issues was work, keep busy and get things done. The novel went a little further with Spencer taking a young man camping and building a small cabin. If the kid didn’t work, no accommodation was made to entertain him. After several boring days and then resigning himself to working, Spencer talked at every opportunity about respecting yourself and being self reliant. And when the small cabin was built, there was physical evidence of what he was capable of.
ReplyDeleteMy heart aches for kids who aren’t given the tools of living a great life.
Bonnie in Minneapolis
So many kids get bad starts. Fred is an extreme case, but there are lots of kids struggling in this area.
DeleteMy son's biological father is a sociopath, lived off women, abusive, alcoholic, that's the stuff I know. He is also the son of a woman who was sent to residential school. His father was an abusive alcoholic. Is it set in the genes? Epigenetics would say yes. The genes of our foremothers and forefathers can be changed by stress, trauma, addictions, and abuse. Fred carries those genes within him. I don't know if it's possible to change the course of his life. At thirteen I doubt it and it's heartbreaking. Addictions don't need a war on drugs, babies and families need help from the beginning to avoid addictions and violence.
ReplyDeleteMy son, also a sociopath, I think. Lives off women. Addictions. Abuse. Refuses to accept any responsibility for his own life and the decisions he's made. Blames others. And this started in childhood. Tried to choke a playmate with a rope. Started a fire in our house. Knocked his friend unconscious, gave him a concussion. That's the stuff I know.
My son is back in jail again, after four months of sobriety. He turns forty in two months. I wish I could love him again.
This is why I worry so much about Jack. What if despite everything we do, he turns out to be just like his dad?
ReplyDeleteBelieve me, Pixie, I understand this with all my heart.
DeleteWe studied a lot of life-span human development at university because the Prof was an international expert - advisor to WHO for example. The evidence from children who have had awful starts to life (e.g. brought up in complete isolation) is that a complete change of environment helps most. The older they are, the less the potential for change. It rarely happens because it means taking them away from home and parents into an entirely different kind of life, which is unethical.
ReplyDeleteTasker, last night, I sort of came to the same conclusion. If a child starts out in dysfunction, he learns dysfunction. He learns how to manipulate that environment, and how to make it work in his favor. Guilt is destructive. If the mother feels guilt, the child is almost certainly manipulating that guilt to get his way. That's an easy dynamic to fall into. You're talking to the queen of guilt here. He would have to be in an environment that he could not control or manipulate.
DeleteYou know, I've been thinking a lot about the philosophy of "determinism". Here's a brief definition: "the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions."
ReplyDeleteA neurobiologist named Nikhil Krishnan has written a book on this subject (Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will) and I have heard him interviewed on a podcast. A lot of it makes so much sense. It all starts when we are in the womb- not just perhaps the drugs a mother takes, but also the hormones that flood her system due to depression or anxiety or fear. These can affect us for the rest of our lives.
In our culture, we believe so strongly in free will. That you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps. That you can overcome all sorts of difficulties if you just want to badly enough and try hard enough. But even our desire to change can be predetermined by things that happened to us and the situations into which we were born. It's in interesting philosophy. It also points out that some people were born into situations in which they had all of the right "stuff" to succeed. That we cannot condemn others for their failures nor can we congratulate others for their success. These things were inevitable.
Okay. That's enough. But when I read your story of Fred, I thought about all of this. Here's a review of Krishnan's book from the New Yorker magazine. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/11/13/determined-a-science-of-life-without-free-will-robert-sapolsky-book-review
Your comment gave me a lot to think about. I have my opinion, but I certainly don't have THE answer. I hope someone can reach these young people, because they DESERVE it.
DeleteBonnie in Minneapolis
Mary, I've been considering this all day. I have not read the book, but I believe that it simplifies things too much. You know, a friend of mine came to visit with her kids and she brought a boy along. His name was Janvier. He was from an African country. His father was involved in politics and a political rival sent men to capture him. Janvier's mother was brutally tortured, in front of her children in an effort to get information on where the father was (she did not know). That boy, probably 13, carried his mother for MILES, herding his younger siblings, hiding when it was dangerous, continuing on. They received sanctuary in the United States so that the mother could be treated. Every bone in her hands had been broken. What I know is that you never saw a happier boy. I met him two years after his mother and sisters and he were moved here. He was smart, driven to succeed, and perfectly, beautifully joyous
DeleteI guess what I'm trying to say, is there are kids who are born with nothing they need to succeed...and yet they do. There are examples of that over and over again.
Yet you are right. Some kids are never given a chance to see how life could be and never make it because they don't even don't see their dreams as achievable. Others have everything, and they struggle and fall as well.
I don't know what the answer is. Maybe I need to read that book.
Amen, Bonnie. Amen.
DeleteWhat an amazing story about Javier. It is unbelievable how some people can survive the unbearable with such grace. I still think that there are factors which contribute to such ability to survive and thrive which we are not able to yet understand. And trust me- he WILL have problems as he grows older. No one can go through something like that unscathed. But how they manifest and how he deals with them are dependent on so many different things. Bless him.
DeleteJanvier (he was born in a French speaking country and in the month of January) will certainly struggle with PTSD or something like that. I can't imagine that he would not. But I have no doubt in my mind that he will struggle past it every time. You and I both know that PTSD is not a 'one and done' event. He will not succumb to it. That resiliency is what fascinates me. Why do some have it? Why do others lack it?
DeleteWhat a sad situation for all involved. I hope they don't give up and that they can find the solution for this young man. Maybe different counseling? I don't have the answer but I wish I did.
ReplyDeleteThere are not a lot of options here. Finding a private psychologist/psychiatrist is virtually impossible when you are not rich.
DeleteI feel that anyone can be saved, even Fred, but the only way to do so is to completely remove him from his normal environment, and in this case his parents. Even though they appear to be decent on the outside, my guess is there is still something wrong with the family dynamics that we can't see from the outside looking in. It is heart breaking to sit there as an outsider though and watch the implosion happen. There is a "Fred" in my oldest daughter's class with a tough back story. I fear his life will be very tough and though he hasn't been yet, he will spend much of it institutionalized for misdeeds.
ReplyDeleteI came to this conclusion last night too, Ed. His parents' love is not enough to save him. His parents mean well, and I'm not going to pretend to know what life inside that house is. I do know that the family dynamics are not effecting a change.
DeleteI think he can be saved. And the earlier they could have done it the better it could have worked. The family needs professional guidance and counseling. Unfortunately that is not available for a lot of families, heck most families. My daughter is a teacher. She had a family with a horrific event. There were two daughters. The family could only afford one counseling appointment a month. So the girls took turns. So they had an appointment once every 2 months. Not nearly enough. This family is in a worse situation because they are trying. If they were 100% on assistance, they might qualify for more. But they are penalized for trying. This boy needs intensive counseling at this point. And, so does the family. He could be saved. Remember us at 13? We were babies. He has no friends, he has no boundaries - he is adrift and alone in the world. I will pray that somehow a path develops to help him.
ReplyDeleteMiss Merry, I was in similar circumstances. The counselling was needed, but I couldn't afford it, not for all of us.
DeleteYou can see him following a pattern,.and like his mother he may have to work through it...it sounds like she has done.. hopefully he will eventually, with help. But it is a painful process and the problem is that other people get hurt in the process
ReplyDeleteYou know, gz, if you were here (or I there), I would hug you for that! You are right. His mother turned her life around. I'm not sure what the catalyst was for certain, but she did. The boy is on a bad path, but he could come to realize that on his own. It is possible. I have forgotten to dwell in possibility.
DeleteI am happy to have found your blog through Going Gently. I enjoy your writing style, your conversations and your followers.
ReplyDeleteJust a brief introduction: I am 3 years retired, also live in PA in the Philadelphia Suburbs. Hobbies include needlework, hummingbirds, reading and decorative cookie baking.
As for this topic, gosh, its hard to say but I guess as the saying goes, only if they truly want to change. Nobody can force it. I have a good friend who adopted 3 siblings when they were around 6-8. They had awful parents,just horrid. One of those children (now grown around 30) has been a nightmare. It doesn't matter how hard the adoptive parents tried, just nothing works. He is a con man , dead beat father, drug user, currently staying under the radar because of a hit and run in Florida. I could go on and on. I don't know if its in the genes or because of his life before adoption. I have other friends and relatives who,unbelievably have similar stories with their adopted children. I don't know, maybe those children were put up for adoption because their parents were abusive and or drug users and it. affected them in a negative way. Its all just so heartbreaking .
Was he the oldest sibling? I'm just curious, because the oldest child would have dealt with the terrible circumstances the longest. Maybe that's part of it: The earlier the intervention, the more likely it is to succeed. My son's family lives on the eastern side of the state. Perhaps some day we will have an opportunity to meet.
DeleteHe is actually a twin to a sister. And has an older brother. They have all had problems but his is the worst. Their father was in prison and they wanted him to get out so they could kill him. He ended up murdered in prison. Part of the problem is, the won't really talk about what they went through. Tried counselling numerous times.
DeleteSome people are not fixable. Did you ever see the movie "The Bad Seed"? They are sociopaths. I'm certainly not saying this kid is, but his history and parents' history do no play out well. Prisons are full of sociopaths. I hope this kid CAN eventually turn his life around, but statistically it doesn't look good. I was a psychiatric nurse for 25 years.
ReplyDeleteParanormal John
You know, John, I was hoping you'd weigh in. Your experience offers a look at the situation from another vantage point. Thanks.
DeleteThank you all for your comments. You provided me with a lot of food for thought.
ReplyDeleteWhat a rough situation. That was kind of Tim to try and help him. I know that Fetal Alcohol Syndrome affects kids before they're born; it makes sense that some of these behaviors could stem from the drugs and alcohol taken before he was born. Interesting that William has a direct experience observing this wayward kid. It certainly shows William that all of the "be safe, don't bully, stay off drugs" messaging has a sad reality and outcome sometimes when not followed. You've done the most to be reasonably expected. Linda in Kansas
ReplyDeleteTim and I have no qualifications to make a difference in this boy's life. We've used the 'watch and see what happens to this kid' thing on William many times. (There are a lot of kids with problems, not just Fred). Behavior has consequences. I'd rather him see those consequences than to learn them first hand.
DeleteProbation?! Wow. I didn't even know that was possible for a 13-year-old. I wonder if there are some underlying, hereditary mental health issues that drove the parents' addictions and are driving this boy's bad behavior. Has the stepfather sought out any professional counseling for the boy or had him evaluated? (Ms Moon and Pixie both touched on this in their comments above.)
ReplyDeleteHe's been in counselling for most of his life. I'm not privy to the details of that, of course. But I know that there is such a thing as there is a genetic component to addiction. In pondering it, I think that he's gotten good at manipulating his parents to make it work for him, using his mother's guilt and even his stepfather's religious beliefs. There is something wrong, even though they might be trying their very best.
DeleteYou sent me scurrying off, Steve. I thought perhaps the 'probation' was some school situation maybe, and not a legal definition. Juvenile probation, Pennsylvania legal definition: Probation – Your child remains in your home. He or she must follow the rules and conditions imposed by the Court while under the supervision of his or her probation officer. Probation may include curfews, where he/she may go, and whom he/she spends time with.
DeleteA wealth of good thoughts and insight here, this is a tragic one for sure. But I cannot help but wonder if Fred may have been affected by fetal alcohol syndrome, we'll never know. The other thing likely at work here is that the environment a child grows up in has an indelible effect, if there is dysfunction and violence it is all but impossible for that not to affect the child. Perhaps he could be removed from the environment entirely , that would seem to be worth a try, because at this point nothing has worked. Or as many have said, he just might be a sociopath and beyond the reach of family or counseling assistance. I hope he can be saved, but it's possible he may not be.
ReplyDeleteI really think that every one who thought of alcohol/drug intrauterine effects have likely hit upon the simple and sad truth. "Dwell in possibility."
DeleteMeaning that he could recognize he has problems that are not his fault and with professional help begin to address things. As Paranormal John pointed out statistically speaking it is not likely.
DeleteThirty year teacher here….its too late for anyone to save this boy, but it’s not to late for him to save himself. People are capable of astonishing turnarounds but they have to happen in their own time. The best thing to do in my opinion is to keep those around him safe from him and keep the door of communication as open as possible.
ReplyDeleteHow we parent is crucial - nothing can make up for gestational drug use, early abuse and /or neglect or plain parental ignorance and stupidity.
You know, that is an interesting take on it and I cannot disagree. I really love all the thoughts on this.
DeleteNature vs nurture…. I used to believe in the latter, but after having gotten too close for comfort to someone with narcissistic personality disorder (the Wikipedia definition is not very good, unfortunately), and seeing how _instinctive_ the person’s behaviors were and how precisely they matched the specifics of the disorder, I’ve come to believe that we’re all mostly born with our personalities…. With the right guidance, experiences, and motivation, some of us can perhaps learn ways to modify how we express our personalities — but inside, we remain who we always were…. In this case, I worry for the parents and others who are trying to help Fred; he seems capable of frightening cruelty that will be increasingly dangerous as he gets older.
ReplyDeleteWe have had a chance to view a sociopath close up. Scary, scary stuff. He spent some time in prison for burning his mother's house down. He was seen legally as the sociopath, but the thing is, he and his mother had discussed burning down the house for years. She told him that she would split the insurance money with him. He was seen as the villain, she was seen as the poor victim. I see it as, 'the apple did not fall far from the tree'.
ReplyDeleteThere are some boot camp schools that I have heard of that make amazing changes in troubled kids. I don't know if it would work for this one, but its a thought.
ReplyDeleteWe are well outside the realm of being any help to them. It makes me sad though, for all of them.
ReplyDelete