Jaycee asked the question about the Nazi marchers in yesterday's post.
"Are such things legal in your country?"
Sadly, yes they are.
This little gem was from 9 years ago.
Even longer ago than that, when I lived in Midland Michigan, the Klan held a rally on the court house steps. I floated the idea of having a counter rally. In the end, the idea was taken over by some church leaders, and the church that was kind of catty corner from the courthouse set up a prayer service to coincide with that rally. In the end, the church was packed. The Klan Rally wound up being less than a dozen fine fellows who rode into town in the bed of a pickup truck, waving their flags and trying to make a lot of noise.
It was even kind of funny in a very unfunny way.
So yes, Jaycee. Perfectly legal. The question begs an answer though. Does freedom of speech cover people who are trying to marginalize and vilify others? To me, the answer would be a simple 'no'. But there are lawyers who will muddy common sense and turn it into a First Amendment issue.
Ironic.
You see, there's this orange man...
Be good people.
Do good things.
Stick together.
I lived in Sarnia, and there was a kind of friendly sporting venture between us and Midland. So I have been there along with my daughter’s softball team.
ReplyDeleteOh hold on. There is probably another Midland that is not in Michigan. 🤓
DeleteNope. It was probably Midland Michigan. I went back and read about it. https://www.ourmidland.com/news/article/MichiTario-A-friendly-rivalry-7168191.php
DeleteI left there in 1998. I really did think that I would live there for all my life.
Did you ever go to the tridge?
DeleteI admit to being hazy about the legality of such things here too, although I am sure that incitement of hatred and violence is illegal in the UK, and possible in Europe too. It seems that, sadly, there are all too many neo-Nazi rallies all over.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that too many people will argue that they don't incite hatred or violence. That hatred and violence is the fault of the people who reacted that way...not the people who said the words that caused them to react in that way. It really is sickening.
DeleteMy question always becomes, who gets to determine where the line is drawn that determines what is vilification or marginalization of others? What rules can be created to determine how much is acceptable and how much isn't for those who want to protest against anybody else? I haven't seen any real good answers to those questions and so I tend to side with protecting those sorts of things under free speech, even if I personally find them repugnant. I think having someone to play the sousaphone/tuba is a good way to equalize the playing field of having to allow such things under freedom of speech.
ReplyDeleteI just tend to believe that some things are just wrong. We can pull one hundred different scenarios into it, but all that does is distract from the matter at hand. I'm going to suggest that your grandparents would have disagreed with you. Nazism is bad. Period. End of it. Their ideals have no place in a civilized society.
DeleteOne example that comes to mind is that I have a few ancestors that were part of the temperance movement and at the minimum wrote letters to the newspaper talking about the evils of alcohol. It isn't a hard leap to think they might have participated in a march or two that might have vilified those that drink. Should they have been curtailed too back then?
DeleteI'm not arguing Nazism isn't bad. It is. Period. But I also see this huge gray area between saying this form of protest is bad and this form of protest is good and how do we determine where to draw the line between doing some good and what might someday become a form of dictatorship like say what Russia does to those who disagree with Putin.
As we are seeing when one party gets complete power, they can start making the rules and changing those lines we draw in the sand. I would rather have that freedom enshrined somewhere more protected, even if it means I have to put up with some forms of it that I find unpalatable.
I just remember the PSB America series about 1930s USA Nazis....it is as if nothing has changed in nearly 100 years
ReplyDeletePBS? If it was, I saw that. It was horrifying. Charles Lindbergh's role was horrifying.
DeleteYes, PBS ...sydlexic, who, me?!!
DeleteIn Ireland we have eejits. I think this is a good description of silly people Debby.
ReplyDeleteOh Dave. You're such a nice person. That's not what I call them.
DeleteI guess hate didn't die it just went into hiding until the Frump made it seem great again.
ReplyDeleteWell, it certainly came out in force during his first four years. Proud Boys in the White House. Fine people on both sides in Charlotte. It's going to be worse this time, I think.
DeleteShould freedom of speech support freedom to intimidate? Incitement to hatred is an offence in this country.
ReplyDeleteIt should be, but too many people want to muddy the waters. "Yeah but, yeah but, yeah but." No. What they are saying, the specter they are raising is unacceptable. Period.
DeleteWhen we moved from Ohio to Mississippi, I had only been around black families that I had known for years and very few were in our area. I went to pick up some groceries in Mississippi while they unloaded the truck. the first light I had to stop at the KKK surrounded my truck trying to give me papers and kept getting closer to me. I did not have air in my truck and had the windows down. I quickly rolled the windows up and waited for the light to change, I was afraid to run the light being new in town and out of state plates and driver license. It scared me so bad I could hardly move when the light change. I had never been around anything like that. I did get used to it after a few months but when men in white from head to toe come toward a northern girl it is scary.
ReplyDeleteImagine what it would be like if you were a black girl with men in white from head to toe coming at you.
DeleteSo this morning I read that our governor has condemned the actions (which I thought included spraying black residents with pepper spray) but after detaining the Nazis, they were let go without charges.
ReplyDeleteI am embarrassed for my state and defeated.
That needs to be looked into.
DeleteHere (Australia) there is a young man about to find out the hard way that even showing the Nazi salute is illegal: he's about to go to jail for it. He did it knowing that it was illegal, he's just a moronic provocateur. He is part of a horrible group who want Australia just "for the white man" and who go around terrorising people.
ReplyDeleteIt slays me that it is illegal in Germany to deny the holocaust and to do the nazi 'stuff'. Yet here we are, defending our nazis and yelling about freedom of speech. There is no common sense here.
DeleteBrendan Carr has been nominated for head of the FCC. He wants to do away with the censorship currently endured by the right. So, no more fact checking or any of that, just straight right wing lying will be the norm. When did Nazis become the good guys? When did THAT happen?
ReplyDeleteI couldn't tell you. And these same people scream about our constitution. My god. They do not know the first thing about constitutional rights.
DeleteWe had the same experience in our small town. The Klang rally was a total non-event. Still it is maddening that there are those who will hold such things
ReplyDeleteKlang rally. That made me laugh.
DeleteAs I said to Bea, if you want to persuade people, just lie, and all too many will believe it.
ReplyDeleteIf the words are agreeable to them, far too many people don't look any farther than that.
DeleteThat clip is so funny and how amazing that a little music can make people look so stupid.
ReplyDeleteIt made me laugh 9 years ago. It made me laugh when I remembered it today.
DeleteFunny clip.
ReplyDeleteWe all may need to invest in sousaphones!
DeleteFreedom of speech is protected but not incitement to violence or chaos. Which the neo-Nazis are guilty of. As a prior commenter said, when did Nazis become the "good guys" and acceptable to so many? I'm incredibly disturbed by everything right now; is it healthy to live in a perpetual state of outrage and terror?
ReplyDeleteShort answer: No, Margaret. It's not. I don't see how anyone can justify what they are saying and what they are doing as 'protected'. You can 'yeah but...' all you want, but that is just wrong.
DeleteIt is so different in America and what I find in all these groups is imitations of the past. But for all their bad presence there are far more good people I believe. Also the young grow up with different ethnicities around them. I am not sure how you should approach protests movement as far as the law is concerned. A dictatorship imprisons good protestors as well and allows the bad to exist.
ReplyDeleteWe identify groups in this country as 'hate groups'. Those are groups who target people with the goal of intimidating or frightening. In other words, keeping them in their place. If a group is designated a hate group, their speech should not be protected. It's simple to me. If we are not going to do that, why even bother to designate them? This was not a protest.
DeleteOne final thought. How can a group that claims free speech also defend banning books?
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't make sense to me.
Even as a member of an oft-vilified minority, I tend to think that people with odious, hateful views should be able to publicly express themselves. I agree with the ACLU and the Supreme Court on that count. It's up to the rest of humanity to realize how off-the-mark they are, and this is where people seem to be failing nowadays. (Also, obviously, there must be curbs on instigating specific acts of violence, as there now are.)
ReplyDeleteAs Denise advised above, anything Nazi is banned here - which is a good thing, but should also be taught as to WHY it is banned. Hate is such a horrible colour and goes with nothing.
ReplyDeleteSomehow or other that first amendment has to be adjusted. You gave an excellent answer to Jay Cee.
ReplyDelete